POINT/COUNTERPOINT: Gay bar stirs differing comments

Point – James Hull

As a preacher, pastor and Minister of the Gospel, I have made my opinions and position well-known concerning homosexuality and gay marriage. I am opposed to both, based on my interpretation of the scriptures in the Holy Bible.
Yet, as a citizen of the United States of America, I am outraged at the recent actions of the Town of Shannon Board of Alderman. Supposedly, the board refused to re-issue a bar license to a local entrepreneur because, according to the board, its citizens didn’t want another bar in town. In reality, we all know why the license was denied: Because it would cater to a gay and lesbian clientele. In other words, the board didn’t like “their kind,” and decided to restrict the owner’s freedom of commerce. That such fear-mongered subterfuge could take place in this day and age, and the city leaders would be so blatant about it, speaks much about those who will supposedly defend the constitution to their dying breath.
I disagree with the gay and lesbian lifestyle. But I also disagree that I have the right to impose my religious views on anyone else and trample on the Constitution in the process.
I personally am not threatened by the gay or lesbian lifestyle. Nor do I believe “traditional marriage” is threatened by same sex marriage any more than synthetic oil threatens to put petroleum out of business.
Many – but apparently not all – of us in the faith community only view the recent Supreme Court’s decision allowing same-sex marriage as just another change in society, not a change in our religious values.
In my mind the court really didn’t have a choice. If it had ruled any other way, they would have, in effect declared that a certain group of citizens – because of their beliefs – is not equally protected under the laws of our nation, and, therefore can be discriminated against at the whim and pleasure of anyone who wants to do so.
Apparently, and unfortunately, the Shannon Board of Aldermen holds that view.

Counterpoint – Ed Holliday

James, first let me say that the Shannon board has spoken and if anyone feels that their rights have been violated, then courts are available.
James, now as to your point that traditional marriage in not threatened by same sex marriage I must say that you are dead wrong. The entire debate about gay marriage should be about the children – children now and in the future. Why would we give our children a different definition of marriage? In a country based on Judeo-Christian values, how is gay marriage affecting our children?
First, we know longstanding institutions such as Catholic adoption services have been shut down in states where gay marriage is now legal because they refuse to place children into homes that contradict their beliefs. Second, in states where gay marriage is legal, children are being taught in kindergarten that they can grow up to marry either a man or a woman. How will this affect the next generation? Preliminary statistics show that over 30 percent of children raised in a home with gay parents end up adopting the gay lifestyle, and, yet, in the general population only 2-3 percent of the population practice the gay lifestyle. Are we experimenting with our children in a “Brave New World?” Will a continuing change in the definition of marriage lead to an imploding civilization such as ancient Greece and Rome?
If our society says it is right to change the definition of marriage to include gay people, then how can we legally discriminate against the bisexuals? Shouldn’t they be given the right to marry a man and a woman. And if it’s about marrying who you love why can’t people marry two or three or four or more different men and women? Using these standards, how can we legally stop incestuous marriages? How about transgendered marriage rights?
God is not mocked. America is dying. Judgment comes on both the just and the unjust. The Bible tells us about Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. They refused to bow down and worship a false god in ancient Babylon. We need such men and women with a backbone today.

  • Winston Smith

    “In a country based on Judeo-Christian values, how is gay marriage affecting our children?”

    If gay marriage is legalized it will affect your children in the following ways:

    1.) If your children grow up to be gay they can get married

  • FrereJocques

    “James, first let me say that the Shannon board has spoken and if anyone
    feels that their rights have been violated, then courts are available.”

    And they will be availed. It’s already begun. And taxpayers’ money will be wasted defending the undefendable. But, that’s never stopped elected bigots before. Why should it be different now?

    “James, now as to your point that traditional marriage is not threatened
    by same sex marriage I must say that you are dead wrong.”

    No, it is YOU, Dr. Holliday, who is wrong. And in so many different ways.

    “The entire debate about gay marriage should be about the children – children now and in the future.”

    Oh? When did THIS change come about? Before, it’s always been about the immorality and the end of civilization as we know it. Gay people can’t have children, remember?

    ” Why would we give our children a different definition of marriage?”

    So they can know that, if they are gay, they will still be allowed to marry the person they love?

    “First, we know longstanding institutions such as Catholic adoption
    services have been shut down in states where gay marriage is now legal
    because they refuse to place children into homes that contradict their
    beliefs.”

    Sounds like a personal problem to me. Catholics don’t have a lock on childrens’ adoption agencies. If they want to discriminate against certain people, and will shut down otherwise, that’s THEIR (oh, and the CHILDREN’S, too) loss. Other agencies can be created, who will not pick and choose who they will work with.

    “Second, in states where gay marriage is legal, children are being taught
    in kindergarten that they can grow up to marry either a man or a woman. How will this affect the next generation?”

    Already answered. See above.

    “Preliminary statistics show that over 30 percent of children raised in a
    home with gay parents end up adopting the gay lifestyle, and, yet, in
    the general population only 2-3 percent of the population practice the
    gay lifestyle.”

    I’m calling the lie to this one. Please quote your source for that statistic. And I can show you MANY recent studies that totally contradict your statement.

    “Will a continuing change in the definition of marriage lead to an imploding civilization such as ancient Greece and Rome?”

    Our country may be imploding, but it is NOT doing so because of gay marriage. You are setting up a “straw man” to take the blame for something or someone else. It is more likely that the country is imploding because of Government that is unresponsive to the needs of its citizens; actually HOSTILE to its citizens; taking away civil liberties in the name of “national security”; taking away civil rights under the guise of RELIGION; destroying the Middle Class by caving to the demands of Big Business and Big Banks; oppressing the poor by removing all forms of public assistance for their housing, food, and health care; and overall corruption of public officials. Blaming gay marriage is deceptive, unrealistic, and hypocritical, all rolled into one.

    “f our society says it is right to change the definition of marriage to
    include gay people, then how can we legally discriminate against the
    bisexuals?”

    You can’t.

    “Shouldn’t they be given the right to marry a man and a woman. And if
    it’s about marrying who you love why can’t people marry two or three or
    four or more different men and women?”

    There you go again, trying to create an issue where none exists. No one is talking about bigamy or polygamy. Another “straw man”.

    “Using these standards, how can we legally stop incestuous marriages?”

    How are we doing it now? Gay marriage won’t change that.

    “How about transgendered marriage rights?”

    How about them? What difference does it make? If two people love each other, why shouldn’t they get married?

    “God is not mocked.”

    Except by those who use His name to do things that He would NEVER do.

    ” America is dying. Judgment comes on both the just
    and the unjust. ”

    Which is something you yourself should remember. I believe that on Judgement Day, there will be MANY surprised and shocked people standing at the Pearly Gates when God’s judgement is pronounced upon them.

    “The Bible tells us about Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.
    They refused to bow down and worship a false god in ancient Babylon. We
    need such men and women with a backbone today.”

    Do YOU believe in what you say as strongly as they did? Tell you what–I’ll go heat my furnace seven times hotter than I’ve ever heated it before. If you’re willing, I’ll cast you into it. :) Hey, I’ll make the challenge worth your while: If you survive, I’ll lead the march on Washington to outlaw gay marriage and gay rights in general!

    • Steve

      FJ you are speaking from sort of personal conviction and NOT from any empirical evidence show these relationships DON’T favor children and in fact HARM them. These aren’t MY studies. I pray for the purity of these mislead and misguided folks….them AND you.

      • Gestly

        Steve your opinion is irrelevant as any intelligent adult knows that.there are no credible scientific studies showing gay parents are any better or worse than straight ones. If there are such studies, please point me to them, or are you just spouting of typical biblical b.s.?

      • FrereJocques

        You know Steve, I was once like you. Closed-minded, rigid, secure in my beliefs. I had grown up believing everything I had been taught by my parents, my teachers, my preachers, and church elders. But I was not happy. There were nagging questions about many things, questions that all those people didn’t have answers to, and in fact didn’t want to discuss. If the answer wasn’t “That’s just the way it is”, then it was “Don’t question that; God only knows, and it will be explained on Judgement Day”, or even “Don’t ask those kinds of questions”. The more I heard that, the unhappier I became.

        The day finally came that I had had enough of it. I just couldn’t accept the obvious contradictions in what I had been taught and what I was seeing and experiencing in the real world. I started reading and studying and TALKING TO OTHER PEOPLE on my own, and I discovered there WERE answers to my questions. And when I started relating to my teachers and preachers what I had learned, to my shock and surprise they DENOUNCED me and told me I was on the path to destruction. They had no intention of admitting to any wrongdoing or errors on their part. That was when I came to the realization that organized religion is a sham and a lie.

        Note I said “ORGANIZED” religion. I do not belong to any specific church sect. I still believe in Christianity, and I believe I am a Christian. I follow Christ’s teachings as best I understand them. And I am always open to new learning, understanding, and wisdom. That is how I got to where I am today.

        Steve, I urge you to follow my path. Read, study, and learn for yourself. You have obviously listened to too many preachers, and you have believed everything they have taught you. “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15.

        I am a much happier person now, and much more at peace with both God and my own conscience. I believe you would be, too.

        “So many churches. So little Christianity.”

        I’ll be praying for you, too.

  • Gestly

    Ed Holliday beats the dead horse that gays are somehow “bad” for children. In fact, it is denying the hundreds and thousands of children of same sex parents the stability and rights of every other family that is truly harming children. Ed needs to catch up with the science — every credible study shows that the primary factor in a child’s upbringing is a loving stable household — not the gender of the parents. Saying that gays should be denied equal rights “because of the children” is just the latest tactic of people who wish to express their moral dissaproval of gays, and it is based on lies and outdated, discredited junk science.

    • Steve

      You’re as wrong as you can be. There IS NO evidence or studies that show these relationships spawn generally well balanced children. In fact it is JUST the opposite. I hope you will read real studies because the truth is, in fact, out there for those who want to know the truth.

      • Gestly

        OK Steve, point me to some scientific studies to prove your point. If you are referring to the 2012 Regnerus Study, this has been completely discredited by hundreds of social scientists. This piece of junk science was sponsored by two anti-gay hate groups and it reached conclusions that had no validity.

        Why are people like you Steve so sure of your opinions yet you lack even a basic knowlege of the real facts? Or are your opinions just based on feelings?

  • Steve

    Biblically and biologically, Hull WRONG. Holliday RIGHT. Hulls view is hypocritical and it would have been better had he not given his opinion at all. You can’t use the Bible to defend that homosexuality is wrong and then condemn those that would restrict it. Those of you that defend this so called same-sex partnership have the blood of scores of innocent children on your hands. Studies have long proven there is a high degree of child sexual abuse amongst same sex “parents” Biblically, and if you don’t BELIEVE in God, biologically it is totally not viable and anyone who doesn’t get the decay it is causing on our society, just has their head’s under the cover.

    • Gestly

      Steve, just another of the many anti-gay lies — please point me to examples of child abuse by gay parents. i can sure point to millions of cases of child abuse by straight parents, but those don’t count, right? And just what is this “decay” you are speaking of?

    • TWBDB

      Steve, not only are you wrong about the wealth of research into same-sex couples raising children but you’re spreading hate-filled propaganda insinuating gay people are more prone to commit crimes of violence, including pedophilia and other forms of child abuse. The real facts are that gay youth are more prone to be the victims of these crimes, most likely linked to the very style of hate-filled propaganda you spread.

      Likewise, others have insinuated children raised in same-sex households are more prone to be gay themselves, when in fact repeated, peer-reviewed, studies have found no significant difference in the sexual orientation rate of these children as compared to opposite-sexed couples. Gay people and gay couples are more willing to adopt gay teens who’ve been cast aside or run away than their heterosexual counterparts.

      ‘Research sampling of convenience’ is the most cited reason conclusions as those you’ve mentioned have failed peer review. Steve, in my experience, especially in today’s media driven politicized world, the words ‘real, balanced, unbiased, etc.’ are earmarks to red flag those statements for scrutiny. In fact, ‘real’ scientist, or journalist for that matter, don’t have to convince their audience they are real or balanced – it’s obvious.

      • Steve

        I don’t have the time to fully answer to your thoughts right now but will get back to you. As far as you calling what I say “hate filled propaganda” that shows how little you know about what Christians

        • FrereJocques

          “someone whose behavior your found abhorrent”, “…the emotional problems that many gays deal with?”, “dealing with issues that makes them feel they are the lowest of the low”, “a mentally devastating issue as homosexuality.”

          Ah. I think I see the problem. Steve, YOU think that gay people are not only moral degenerates, they are also self-loathing and unable to cope with what goes on in the world. I hate to break it to you, but gay people are NONE of those things. You would know this if you would break out of your shell of self-righteousness and actually GET TO KNOW a few gay people.

          “Further, I know, nor would associate with ANYONE who would show hate or any other negative feeling towards gays.”

          ROTFLMAO Steve, do you actually READ what you type? You basically just said that you would not associate with YOURSELF!! ROTFLMAO AGAIN!

          “You’ve barked up the wrong tree when sizing up me and can assure you
          that most of the Christians you probably feel disdain for actually care
          more for the well being of homosexuals than do you.”

          And the jokes just keep on coming! We’ve got a million of ‘em! Seriously, folks, we’ll be here all night! You ever considered a career in writing comedy, Steve? You’d do well :D

          “….its a fight for the very souls of a human being who needs God’s love as much as anyone else.”

          Steve, I’m going out on a limb here and stating that gay people DO NOT WANT OR NEED *you* to be fighting for their souls. They have their OWN relationship with God. Concentrate on your own. You need it worse than they do. “Remove the beam from thine own eye, to better see to remove the mote from thy brother’s eye.”

      • Steve

        PS I got some of my research information from the journal Social Science Research. It pretty clearly spells out what is going on. Not sure what sources you can cite but I feel very comfortable with this. Thanks!

  • Lied-To

    James, you are right, a CITY and it’s PEOPLE have NO RIGHT to decide what THEY WANT in their OWN city. How dare them think they could do that.

    • TWBDB

      No a City (really a town – let’s get this into perspective) – does not have the right to discriminate against a minority.

      • Lied-To

        You are right, people who want to have sex with their horse in Shannon (a minority of those living in Shannon) do not need to be discriminated against. I vote “YES” on sex with animals in Shannon. Will you?

        • willerz

          Any more straw man arguments you want to put out there?

          • Lied-To

            …any more efforts to change the subject by people who don’t want to address the underlying point? Eh? I ask again….if people are a minority then they MUST be allowed to do what they want? No. being a “minority” does not demand complete permission or granting of “rights”. Bringing up gays as a “minority” is a tactic to disassociate them from the issue at hand. I’m a minority in certain things socially, so should i DEMAND and throw my “minority” title around to get what I want? No. that’s stupid.

  • Lied-To

    “As a preacher, pastor and Minister of the Gospel…” We ought to all be TERRIFIED of James Hull – because Jesus has given him the ability to READ MINDS – as he apparently did with the Aldermen who OBVIOUSLY (according to Hull’s mind reading abilities) “didn’t like “their kind,” — AND not only can he read the Aldermen’s minds, he can also THROW DOWN THE JUDGEMENT very good…(way to go James!) AAAHHHHHH!!!!!!! We will never be free thinkers as long as James Hull is able to clearly read the mind of all people……you got ‘em James. CLEARLY (even though no one told you), you somehow knew their thoughts (even though it’s impossible and we know this is just your opinion), climbed in their head and heard EXACTLY what they were thinking (even though we know you are lying). Wow. Go Jesus, Go Jesus…no wait, Go James, Go James…..Hey James, what am I thinking right now?

  • sag314

    Why are any of you judging? My Bible teaches that GOD is the judge and we are ALL sinners. We will all answer to him for our wrongdoings. I do not believe in same sex marriages, abortion, Bi racial relationships, drugs or alcohol. But I do believe that we were all created in HIS IMAGE! If we would all bring GOD back into our country, schools, home,ect… and follow the Commandments this world would be better.. Get your own house in order according to the BIBLE and let GOD do his Job as JUDGE!

  • Lied-To

    You know the BEST part of stuff like this on the DJournal.com website? Advertisements for Gay Cruises, Gay Dating — the Daily Journal website is so much better now that my teenagers that I encourage to read the news and stay on top of current events – and do it online – are now REALLY getting to enjoy the fruits of society visually if they want it or not. Well, I guess they could stop reading the news on DJournal.com, but according to “TWBDB” as a minority (someone who doesn’t want to see Gay Dating website banners), I should have the right to make the Daily Journal stop showing them. Thank you TWBDB for the advice.

  • my2toys

    I would like to ask “What harm would come to the town of Shannon and it’s citizens if the bar was allowed to open?” I mean there was a bar in that very same building for 15 years and guess what it was a LGBT friendly bar. It was gay owned for the majority of that 15 years and the only time there were issues that made it a problem with the city was when it was owned by straight people. The patrons and owners paid sales tax that went to Shannon, paid business license fees to Shannon, paid water bills to the town of shannon, they spent money at the gas station, at the grocery store, and at Nonie’s truckstop. I know for a fact that Ms Nonie supported that bar being there. They would keep the truckstop open an hour later on Saturday so anyone that wanted to eat and socialize could do so. They would even pull tables together so 10-15 people could all sit together. If any other customer in there had a problem with it they kept it to themselves cause she would tell them to leave if they were rude or said anything degrogotary If you dont want to be around gay people or see gay people dancing together or kissing then dont go to the ‘gay’ bar. Honestly if you dont want to see or be around gay people then you really should not go to any restaurant in Tupelo cause there are gay people working in most all of them as waiters, bartenders, dishwashers, and cooks. In fact next time you are in a bar in Tupelo look around there is probably some gay folks in there as well. Yeap, there are gay people in JR’s, Shade Tree, Blue Canoe, Romie’s grocery, and Romie’s BBQ.